Sunday, 22 January 2012

PSC AGM – A Crushing Defeat For Gilad Atzmon and the Anti-Semites

















Holocaust denier Frances Clarke-Lowes Expelled by Massive Majority

The 30th Conference of PSC promised to be one of the more controversial PSC AGMs and it certainly lived up to it. Entering the conference, who was there giving out blue badges commemorating the massacre at Deir Yassin, but the eminence grise of the holocaust deniers, Paul Eisen - neo-Nazi apologist extraordinaire.

Despite his fulminations against what he calls ‘Zionism’ Eisen is remarkably similar to them. The Zionists exploit the holocaust for their own purposes and Eisen exploits the massacre of Palestinians for his own purposes, i.e. denial of the holocaust and rehabilitation of the Nazis.

The first item on the agenda was a closed session at which the appeal of Frances Clarke Lowes against his expulsion was to be heard. Last April, Francis declared on the Brighton & Hove PSC Discussion List that he was proud to be a holocaust denier. For his pains he was expelled from Brighton PSC and not one voice was raised in his defence in Brighton PSC. I reported his statement to the Executive and sometime in May he was also expelled from national PSC. Francis however had the right of appeal to the national conference and chose to exercise that right.

The speech is printed, in a highly edited version, on (who else?) Gilad Atzmon’s site.

It is fair to say that Clarke-Lowes speech did him no favours. It was extremely anti-Semitic, talking about the ‘Jewish narrative’ and speaking about Jews as a group with common properties. He openly stated that the holocaust was a myth (something Atzmon has not included in his version of the speech). People literally gasped as they heard him describe the holocaust as a ‘myth’ and a number of people told me that if he hadn't been expelled they would have resigned.

The speech from the Executive, from Hugh Lanning, was superb, moving and to the point. It ended by asking conference not to let evil enter our hearts. Conference upheld the expulsion by 165 vote to 35 with 6 abstension. A couple of days ago I had sent an e-mail to the Secretary of PSC, Ben Sofa, saying that in my opinion a majority was not good enough, we needed at least a 3-1 majority. In the end we got 5-1. In fact it was considerably more because I had not realised that the zany Communist Party of Great Britain – Marxist Leninist, the followers of the hereditary oligarchy otherwise known as the ‘socialist state of North Korea’ had taken a decision to oppose any condemnation of holocaust denial. Their amendment to the Executive’s Motion 2 read:

‘This AGM resolves that PSC’s chief focus shall remain that of building support for Palestine and Palestinians and against zionism and imperialism. It is not the PSC’s job to act as thought police on behalf of zionism and imperialism, and we refuse to ask the Palestinians to bend their narrative to one that is acceptable to zionist ears.’

That so-called communists, led by Harpal Brar and his daughter Joti Brar, think that the Palestinian narrative includes holocaust denial or that there is any contradiction between opposing the denial of the holocaust and opposing imperialism and Zionism is truly amazing. But as Harpal Brar made clear in a subsequent speech he cast no doubt on the fact of the holocaust.

In other words most of those who voted against Clarke-Lowes’ expulsion, did so despite his views on the holocaust and primarily as part of a wider disagreement with PSC Executive. And since they brought virtually all of their membership of about 20 to the conference, it is clear even that that stage that those who had any sympathy with Clarke-Lowes were a tiny handful.

After the lunch break we had a guest speaker, Omar Barghouti from the Palestinian Boycott National Committee. He detailed the increasingly open racism of the state, its attacks on the memory of the Nakba, which has been made unlawful, the shameful decision of the Supreme Court to uphold the Citizenship Law which prevents Israeli Arabs from living with their spouse in side Israel.

It must have been a shock when Omar went out of his way to make it clear that anti-Semitism and holocaust denial were no part of the politics of the Palestinians. ‘Ours is an anti-racist cause’ he stated, in case anyone had failed to decipher the meaning of the speech. He generously paid tribute to PSC as the world’s most effective solidarity organisation and to Britain for leading the way in Boycott. It is a compliment that are indebted to honour and repay.

After Omar’s speech the Executive motion 2 and that from Naomi Wimborne Idrissi were taken, along with all 3 amendments from Gill Kaffash/Rosemary Earnshaw, Exeter PSC and the CPGB-ML (above). All the amendments were heavily defeated with less than 20 votes out of over 250 delegates (the votes in the Executive elections indicate there must have been an increase in people arriving by at least 50). Harpal Brar was the only person to speak with any passion or conviction for the amendments. And to his credit he made it clear that of course he accepted that fact of the holocaust without reservation but that there were a number of other acts of genocide we should condemn – that of the Armenians for example, the Iraqis and others. In other words he was speaking agains the Zionists' holocaust exceptionalism - the idea that the holocaust of Jews is unique. I agree.

Even Gill Kaffash chose not to mention anything to do with holocaust and instead mounted a free speech argument, coupled with the assertion that we stick to Palestine not extraneous issues. But speaker after speaker, with the exception of Exeter PSC’s constitutionalist Dave Chappell (FBU), made it clear that it was not possible oppose the racism that Palestinians suffer from and yet tolerate holocaust deniers and their associates. A member of the Communications Workers Union, whose name I didn’t catch, made this clear in a particularly impassioned contribution, as did Roland Rance from Jews 4 Boycotting Israeli Goods and other speakers.

In the end both the Executive Motion and the one from J-Big were passed with barely 10 votes, if that, against. A humiliating and crushing defeat for the Atzmonites and holocaust deniers in the movement. In my own speech I quoted Atzmon’s statement that Jews who speak as ‘ethnic’ Jews, i.e. who are Jewish simply reinforced Zionism. I asked how is it that people agreed when UNISON passed boycott policy in 2007, that I should speak as someone who is Jewish precisely in order to take head on the Zionist lies that to support the Palestinians is anti-Semitic? I never received an answer from Atzmon’s few supporters. Nor will I. Because the growing number of Jews who are breaking from Zionism, partially or completely, has been growing, especially in the United States. Only the Zionists and the Atzmonites deplore this phenomenon.

It is the Zionists' supporters - be it the EDL and BNP in this country - or John Hagee of Christians United for Israel - who described Hitler as god's messenger sent to drive the Jews to Israel, who are the real anti-Semites, and on this of course Harry's Place is silent.

Many other motions were also passed including one on the disgraceful attacks on Palestinian children by the Israeli military. It is to the eternal shame of the West that they have nothing to say about the shackling and torture of children even, to say nothing of the shackling of Palestinian women prisoners, even while they are giving birth.

There were discussions about the growing successes of the boycott movement, in particular the loss of a £500m contract for Veolia in West London and tribute was paid to Angus Geddes for his sterling work in this area. The closure of Ahava, the Israeli store that traded in stolen goods was also highlighted as was the Judaification of the Negev. Bernard Regan in particular spoke well on the latter and his experiences when visiting Israel with a delegation.

This is also the 30th anniversary of the foundation of PSC and a motion was passed mandating the Executive to organise series of fundraising activities and celebrations. When you consider what we have had to battle against to build an organisation that has now achieved over 5,000 members, then this is indeed a success and tribute was paid to faithful stalwarts like Jeremy Corbyn MP, Baroness Jenny Tonge and Bruce Kent. It is a measure of our success that when I first became involved in Palestinian politics Gerald Kaufman and Tony Benn were both members of Labour Friends of Israel. Today Gerald Kaufman has sponsored an Early Day Motion with Jeremy Corbyn on the racist Jewish National Fund.

And conference also made us, including myself, realise, that whatever disagreements we may have with the Executive, what we have in common is far greater than that which divides us. For the first time ever I even voted for Bernard Regan for the Executive and he accused me of stealing his lines! A special mention should be made of Ben Sofa, the Secretary, who has never wavered in his support for tackling the issue head on.

Because the Executive realised that if the holocaust deniers had got their way, the trade unions – with their history of fighting fascism – would have disaffiliated and we would be a cacophony of noise without influence. Those who argued that we should concentrate on Palestine and Palestinians failed to recognise that that means you must politically engage with the mainstream of society and that you have, at all costs, not to hand your opponents weapons to attack you with.

People were angry at the constant misrepresentation of Palestinian activists you see on sites like Harry’s Place, a place where only rabid Zionists with cloth ears venture. However it was important when attacked by such people to recognise that whilst their accusations of ‘anti-Semitism’ may be libels 99 times out of a hundred, there are occasions when we have to sit up and take notice.

So it is that Nahida, an Atzmonite in Liverpool branch, where there have been problems, could write that:
‘The crusade against PSC was ignited by Zionists from outside the movement beginning in September, following an article published on the Zionist hate-website Harry's Place (HP), and a letter from the Board of Deputies of British Jews” (BODBJ), accusing PSC and its branches of publishing anti-Semitic articles and linking to Holocaust denial websites, which arguably is a crude lie. However, the crusade was sustained, promoted and amplified by insiders with questionable loyalty, who roam freely within the Palestine solidarity movement.’ Following those attacks and demands by BOD of British Jews, certain elements inside the solidarity movement picked up where Zionists stopped. Since then they have initiated a campaign of defamation against Palestinian activists (including myself) and numerous other supporters.'

We, i.e. me and members of groups like J-Big, are the ‘inside’ Zionists as opposed to the honest ones. The problem with the Atzmonites is that their arguments and terms of reference are merely an echo of the Zionist argument. They are the reflection of Zionism in much the same way as Zionism was a reflection of anti-Semitism. And as I pointed out, to most Jews, in the pre–holocaust period, Zionism was considered a species of anti-Semitism.

All in a all a very good day for PSC and the Palestinians and an abject defeat for the apologists for Atzmon and Eisen.

Because I was heavily involved in the debate on specific motions, comments would be welcome both on this and the other issues debated at the conference.

Tony Greenstein

94 comments:

George said...

The man stood in front of their members and called the Holocaust a myth and yet 20% of the people who heard him say that wouldn’t vote to expel him!

Does that strike anyone as an organisation which believes, as per the Executive statement, that Holocaust denial has no place within the movement?

For you it is a selfish egocentric childish "defeat for Atzmon" 20% of the Crushing members, are not against Holocaust deniers, so what are you cheering about.

Natalie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Gert said...

Wonderful day!

Harry’s Place will be silent on this wonderful AGM too, of course. They have been slandering you again BTW, in a post by that twit ‘Joseph W’ on Rev Sizer (whom ‘W’ is positively obsessed with) and you.

I know very little about that Francis Clarke-Lowes figure (and google yields very little) but one really has to wonder what it is that attracts these people to a Palsol movement. Is he like Zundel a fascist trying to whitewash fascist crimes by attacking the victims? The mind boggles…

‘socialist state of North Korea’: get it right: Democratic People’s Republic of Korea! ;-)

I’m linking to this post, possibly with two fingers up to HP.

Harvey said...

What other organisation of any description has the need to discuss holocaust denial and antisemitism as an integral part of their membership in the first place .
Except one that is a byword as a safe repository for antisemites and holocaust deniers .
You and your acolytes are crowing over a hollow victory . So what that 80% don't support the Atzmon brigade .
That means 20% of your membership do ie one fifth of your membership are antisemitic holocaust deniers .
And of the rest , how many are simply keeping their heads down in order to avoid the same fate as the fool who made the mistake of voicing his opinions
Booth may be spitting tacks over on her website but it's patently clear that her rascist hatred is far more in keeping with psc membership than you imagine .
No doubt this was a closed vote . Next time you go to a demo or meeting , look around you and try to imagine which one of your erst while colleagues was one that denies the Holocaust and views you as a Jew as something that they trod in .
Before you edit / or simply pull my comment in true Marxist counter propaganda fashion take a moment to dwell on my words and remember the percentages .

Tony Greenstein said...

Obviously Harvey Garfield has trouble reading and who can be surprised. The Report makes it clear that Atzmon's actual support was about 4%, since the rest of those voted did so on a libertarian basis.

THe fact is that Harvey and Jonathan Hoffman have a vested interest in painting their opponents as holocaust deniers in order that they can then excuse the daily racism in Israel that they defend. Maybe Harvey can explain why Israeli Arabs are no longer able to marry and live with Arabs who live outside Israel? The same 'demographic fears' that movitated the Nazis?

And it isn't PSC that demonstrates alongside the EDL at Ahava. That famous picture of JH and Roberta Moore dancing down the street together also included your good self! And then of course there was the incident of Millett and JH defending a staff member of Ahava who called Jews 'christ killers' http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/12/zionists-defend-ahava-staff-who-accuses.html.

fact is that virtually every fascist and anti-Semitic group in Europe supports Zionism and the Israeli state, whilst being holocaust deniers as one my more recent posts shows one of the EDL was actually waving an Israeli flat whilst wearing an Auschwitz shirt denying the holocaust!

Fact is that Zionists like Harvey have used the genocide of the Jews, the holocaust, to legitimise the occupation, the mass killings and all the racism that Palestinians experience. Is it any wonder that some react to such a cynical and blatant misuse of the memory of the dead and respond that there is no holocaust?

Let's face it Harvey, Zionism welcomes anti-Semitism because it drives Jews to Israel. Isn't that Pastor John Hagee said? Hitler was fulfilling a divine mission by driving the Jews to Israel? These are the creatures you work with (oh yes Hagee too was defended by most Zionist leaders) but you would rather seek out traces of anti-Semitism in PSC.

You're a fake Harvey but a genuine racist.

Gert said...

Harvey:

Christians United for Israel (CUFI), under the leadership of John Hagee, is (acc. an undisputed Wiki entry) the largest pro-Israel organisation in the US.

Many of John Hagee’s statements would make most rabid antisemites blush, yet JH is one of AIPAC’s darlings, clearly seen as a brother in arms. That kind of support for your beloved, increasingly fascistoid hell hole, doesn’t bother you? How many millions march to Hagee’s tune, do you think?

Lizzard Gingrich, a guy who may soon have access to the US’s nuclear launch codes, recently declared that the Palestinians are an invented people (a quote I’ve now found approvingly recited at least five times today alone!) This guy may become Israel’s attaché to the Zionist cause in Holy Land II but that’s hunky dorey with you?

Dancing with the EDL, Harvey? Now now!

abraham Weizfeld said...

Tony Greenstein should be congratulated and respected for his efforts to save the Palestine Solidarity movement, in general. This vote is a precedent that will be immediatly felt in the GMJ (Global March to Jerusalem) campaign which is currently debating whether to host Gilad Atzmon as a spokesperson.
In addition, I wish to thank Tony fro combating Holocaust denial since I am myself from a Jewish refugee family that survived the ghettos of Warsaw and Lublin.

Sarah said...

Gert - as we've discussed on your own blog, I posted on this issue -

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/22/holocaust-denier%E2%80%99s-appeal-fails-to-impress-the-psc/

I did so several hours before your comment here too.

I've never heard of Hagee, but here is HP on Gingrich.

http://hurryupharry.org/2011/12/11/gingrich-and-the-invented-people/

Joseph W raises some very fair points in his own latest post.

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/23/the-national-psc-on-holocaust-denial-and-gill-kaffash/

george said...

Next time you go to a demo or meeting , look around you and try to imagine which one of your erst while colleagues was one that denies the Holocaust and views you as a Jew as something that they trod in .

That's no problem for Greenstein.

Alan said...

Kaffash told Iranian news agency IRNA in December 2005:
"There is no doubt that a great number of Jews along with other victims of the Nazi army were killed by Hitler. However, historical phenomena need to be further examined to uncover the truth. Therefore banning opposition to the theses termed as `invariable reality` is irrational."

Kaffash is secretary of Camden PSC. She was asked to resign as Camden PSC chair. However, Kaffash remains a member of the national PSC.

Why has Kaffash not been expelled from the PSC ???

You have a long way to go, to push out the "Holocaust deniers" from PSC.
PSC is 20% "Holocaust deniers".

Levi9909 said...

Hi Tony, I got some emails saying that Atzmon appeared to have doctored the speech but the expression "holocaust myth" does now appear so maybe, as he so often does, he has gone back and redoctored his original post.

Also, I'm guessing you've seen how Harry's Place is plumbing new depths over you and PSC.

Abe Hayeem said...

Well done Tony!
Your cool, precise, and factual approach has done wonders for clearing the name of the PSC which the Board of Deputies for British Jews, the Jewish Chronicle, HP, together with the Atzmon/Eiesenites are trying to sully. The PSC AGM was indeed exceptional to re-inforce its clear anti-racist credentials, underlined by Omar Barghouti's admirable support for its stance against anti-Semites and holocaust deniers.
We can now concentrate on upholding justice and international law against Israel's criminal actions against the Palestinians that continue relentlessly for the whole world to see.

Gert said...

Sarah?

You've never heard of John Hagee or CUFI??? He’s hardly marginal, cosying up to John McCain and Joe Lieberman and feted by AIPAC…

So don your armpit high wellies, goggles and washing peg on the nose and wade in there, presto!

Who is Pastor John Hagee?

Tony Greenstein said...

I imagine that HP will be extremely disappointed with the clear condemnation of holocaust deniers and anti-Semitism by PSC. That is how it should be because Zionists have always welcomed anti-Semitism historically.

To idiots like George, 20% of people who voted against the expulsion of Frances Clarke Lowes did so because they don't see why we should dance to the Zionist tune over this, because they are libertarians who believe in free speech or nutty Stalinists.

I might ask why when I spoke at Sussex University as a student, it was the Chair of the Jewish Society, Adrian Cohen, who opposed No Platform for Fascists & Racists. Did that make him and the rest of UJS fascists?

Thank you Abe, it was a good day. And yes Mark, it would seem that Atzmon doctored FCL speech and if what you say is correct, has re-doctored it.

Certainly Atzmon is not a happy bunny as he e-mailed me out of the blue to saying I was lying about him not supporting BDS.

Presumably he supports it but only if Jews aren't involved and since he can't find a Jew-free BDS action he can't support it.

Gert said...

Sarah:

Joseph W may make some points re. Kaffash but the general reaction from the HP kommentariat remains typical: AZ = AS

Lucy Lips (David Toube, we think), on that thread:

"It is simply an incoherent position: to expel a member from your organisation for antisemitism and Holocaust denial: but to tolerate others who support that position.
What that position says to me is that racist members have been counselled to keep quiet, and that they may be expelled if they express their views.
If 20% of your organisation supports Holocaust deniers, you have a real institutional problem, and you need to address it fully."


And the truly execrable “Fabian ‘I didn’t come to Israel to live among Arabs’ from Argentina”:

"Of course deranged anti-Zionist Jews like Tony Greenstein are the best fig leaf for the antisemites in the PSC. You only need to bring a few far-left asaJews like him or far-right Neturei Karta theocrats to receive a kosher certificate for most of your plans of extermination of the only Jewish country in the world."

Harry’s place is infested with racists, ‘White Working Class’ freaks, Meircan Far Righters etc etc. I don’t ever see anyone do anything about that. How come?

At least Hitchens isn’t Laying in State at HP anymore, I guess it’s a start!

Dave said...

some comments here have misunderstood the 20% who voted against expulsion - and assumed this means that 20% are therefore, holocaust deniers. They should read the article again.

ricorocha said...

pretty strange unreconstructed cpgb-ml stalinists get to vote against clarke-lowes expulsion zany maybe but still politically repugnant like that zany ex-jew antisemite milton kapner going back to the stalin society (chair harpal brar)The Stalin Society was formed in 1991 to
defend Stalin and his work on the basis of fact and to refute capitalist, revisionist, opportunist and Trotskyist propaganda directed against him. http://www.newstatesman.com/200206100016sweanip

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes I'm surprised that Sarah doesn't know who John Hagee is. President of the Christians United for Israel and also/was President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

A died-in-the-wool blood and fire racist. You can read about how this Hitler-supporting Pastor was DEFENDED by the Zionist Organisation of America after he was called an anti-Semite for saying that Hitler was god's servant. Can u get much lower? And it was only after an inordinate delay that the Anti Defamation League (I've never known why an organisation whose main purpose is defamation is called the opposite!) came out to condemn him.

The ZOA reason was that he was a good friend of Israel! As are most anti-Semites.

So we have to take HP with a hefty pinch of salt. The Zionist movement is sorrounded by anti-Semitic friends whom it gets on with like a house on fire (in the case of Poland's Kaminski, he OPPOSED an apology for fellow Poles who had literally set alight the homes of Jews - while they were in them - at Jedwabne in 1941].

As to the 20% of PSC supporting anti-Semitism. In fact the motion from Gill Kaffash picked up less than 10 votes out of 250. And even that motion said nothing about support of holocaust denial.

TO assume that the 16% of those opposed to FCL's expulsion is absurd. People vote for all sorts of motives but the majority was impressive by an standards.

But let us see HP oppose it and Israel's own racism. The article in The Guardian today about the torture and ill-treatment of children (yes applying electric shocks to children) demonstrates the depravity of Israel's military. Let's see an article condemning that - no ifs and buts. Or would that too be anti-Semitic?

skidmarx said...

@Gert - She wouldn't appear to have read HP much last year

Sarah said...

Hagee sounds awful - a bit like Qaradawi.

This seems sound on Kaminski.

http://engageonline.wordpress.com/tag/michal-kaminski/

And this

http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/07/tories-and-extremists/

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes Sarah, Hagee is awful but no different from his fellows who elected/appointed him. The whole basis of Christian support for Zionism is predicated on the death of the Jews who 'return' to Israel and die in The Rapture.

But Hagee is a good friend of most US Zionist organisations and that is the point.

And why is it that a comment I made, and remade today to your post, doesn't seem to have appeared?

Gert said...

”Or would that too be anti-Semitic?”

Of course it would be! Israel is only defending herself against vicious antisemites, albeit in this case in the form of ‘Fakestinian minors’ and we all know what they grow up to be... Clearly anyone critiquing that must be in favour of Israel’s destruction and thus an antisemite of the highest order! {irony off}

Re. CUFI, regardless of Hagee’s vile fire and brimstone general racism and particular antisemitism its website boasts a membership of 900,000! (that’s not counting the Canadian branch - yes, surprise, surprise, there is one) Take that number with a spoon of salt but it’s still an astonishingly large and almost monolithic group. One of their CUFI summits 3 or 4 years ago drew a crowd of 7,000 conference goers! Yet for HP the expulsion of the fool and Atzmon protégé Francis CL from the PSC is proof of Holocaust denial in the PSC: talk about a lack of perspective. Dunderheads will be dunderheads.

As regards HP’s stance on ‘liberty’, that’s also a joke. I’ve had well-formed comments deleted there (and ‘suffered’ also horrendous abuse), so has The Hasbara Buster and I believe also TG.

Unfortunately Lauren Booth seems to have gone off at the deep end over this. Her ramblings at her blog re. the expulsion of FCL are seriously incoherent but in opposition to the expulsion and now basically PSC tout court. Shame, because her latest offering ‘Diaspora’ is well worth watching.

BTW, Atzmon doctored, then re-doctored FCL’s speech: I saw it with my own eyes too. The man’s a pathological tinkerer but not a thinker.

Gert said...

Skidmarx:

In Sarah’s defense I’ll say she joined HP relatively lately (someone correct me on that if needed). Although why a nice moderate Zionist girl wants to contribute to that hornet’s nest is beyond me. Surely it can’t be just the thought of Brownshirts in lederhosen? ;-)

Sarah said...

Tony - that is completely untrue. I have a friend, for example, who is both Christian and Zionist (not Zionist in any extreme way, but Zionist if I'm Zionist). He does subscribe to that apocalyptic theology. I haven't deleted any comments of yours.

Tony Greenstein said...

Well Sara, I can assure you that 3 comments I posted, 2 to your post and 1 to a newer one, have been deleted. They were up there when I posted and aren't now!

Perhaps it was little things like quoting Pinhas Rosenbluth, Israel's first Justice Minister for describing Palestine as an Institute for the Fumigation of Jewish Vermin (I kid you not, Autumn 83 edition of the Journal of Israeli History (was Studies in Zionism vol. 8).

But the point I was making is that Zionism has always had a vested interest in anti-Semitism. If Sarah were to actually read Herzl's Jewish State, still less his Diaries or indeed Ben Gurion on the colonies she would understand that anti-Semitism and racism were integral to the Zionist plan.

Of course it wasn't till the May 1942 Biltmore Conference in the USA that the demand for a Jewish State was made explicitly. Before that Zionists had used various formula aimed at allaying the undeniable Arab fear of being taken over and driven out by the colonists.

And that is in essence what the 'anti-Semitism' of Hamas et al. (who Israel created) is all about. It is reflective. There is no social basis for anti-Semitism as there was in Europe.

Holocaust deniers in the Palestine solidarity movement, in the widest sense, can be counted on one hand. Support for virulent racism against Palestinians on the other hand at HP comes in spades. And therein lies the problem.

I have had some experience in genuinely fighting fascism. And when we moved to No Platform them at Sussex University, who opposed us? Adrian Cohen, Chair of the Jewish Society and a UJS stalwart. By the same 'logic' that HP employs, he must have been an NF supporter!

And to be honest, I cannot remember anti-Semitic comments by NFers that even approaches the stuff I've been sent by Zionists. There is simply no comparison. The NF denied Auschwitz killed anyone Jewish, the Zionists express their desire that I'd been among those killed!

But and this is the main point. Atzmon's influence is now zero. He is a symbol of where vanity can lead you and nothing more

Anonymous said...

Once again a brilliant and thorough analysis by Tony!

The real racist are the thugs at Harry’s Place - they have failed at their attempt to smear PSC. You can almost picture them raging!! Atzmon, Jonathan Hoffman, some bloggers at Jewish Chronicles, etc have failed too. Their tactics have backfired at them. They have no case to argue for Israel therefore stoop to false allegations against campaigners of Palestine rather that seeing the bigger picture of Israel's daily racist oppression of Palestinian and its Apartheid Laws.

Now lets move forward and concentrate on the campaign to free Palestine - these loonies makes us feel we are on the right track.

It is better to focus on campaign like boycott divestment and sanctions but I can see why it becomes necessary to democratically vote out lunatics who try to join and then hinder the campaign.

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes that's right. Atzmon and his sad band of conspirators are politically dead meat and without influence. They have been railing at the wind as Atzmon first doctors and then redoctors Frances Clarke Lowes appalling speech.

Harry's Place is just predictable. They of course wanted PSC to do nothing and some of them, like Mad Mikey Ezra and David Toube/Lucy Lips actually fraternised with him whilst MME acted as his little 'researcher' on me.

The real issue is the imprisonment of and torture of children by Israel (which I think was the real reason why my first post was taken down and then all the rest followed). So HP, dedicated to 'freedom of speech' is left censoring my comments (whilst not having the balls to admit doing so) and remains silent on my challenge to them, which I repeat here, to do a blog on Israel's gross violation of human rights, even in respect of children.

Of course they do have the Nazi get out that Israelis now use. They'll only grow up to be terrorists (it's genetic you see!) so best kill them while they are young, the Nazi 'justification' for the murder of Jewish children.

But just as the return of Jews to Germany is the final nail in Hitler's coffin, so the establishment of Israel was Hitler's posthumous victory.

Sarah said...

Aargh - I meant my friend does *not* support apocalyptic theology! (He's Anglican.) I couldn't find any trace of deleted comments on my post but I'll look again. I think Herzl is probably on my list of books I'm unlikely to read this year (as per recent posts on that topic by Norm Geras and Michael Ezra) but even if I agreed with your analysis I don't think that would change my views about IP, right now.

The comment about Auschwitz was disgusting.

Levi9909 said...

Sarah - don't you think it's disingenuous claiming that you didn't delete Tony's comments from HP when you know or could find out that one of your co-bloggers there has indeed deleted them?

Also, whatever else your colleague, Joseph W, is saying about PSC, he has deliberately mangled the interpretation of the voting figures at the PSC AGM.

I don't suppose a comment pointing out that all HP bloggers support ethnic cleansing and segregation would survive as long as a comment from "Lamia" to the effect that "The Pakistani immigrant population alone have contributed a great deal to the antisemitic ‘culture’ of the country. The jury’s out on whether they have contributed much else. Oh yes, I forgot: white child-prostitution rings. How wonderfully multicultural."

I noticed you slapped his wrist for his overt racism but others get banned from HP for anti-racism.

skidmarx said...

That's why I gave up trying to post on HP:Sarah might restore comments on her own threads when pressed but she does nothing about their repeated deletion (I think by Alec Macpherson,but possibly by others as well) and claims ignorance of the process as an excuse, just as she disclaims responsiblility for the hysterical tone that is a constant at HP.
I did think of commenting about her recent post comparing those who wouldn't work with EDL and BNP memebers to those that wouldn't work with SWP members, a real insult to those on the receiving end of racist and fascist attacks, but as she couldn't understand a while back why her wholehearted agreement with an HP commentator who talked of the "deep-seated racism of the far left" was stupid and deeply offensive to those who struggle against oppression it begins to look like a pointlessly repetitive exercise.
Tony is right to look at looking forward.

Tony Greenstein said...

It is irrelevant if Sarah is or is not deleting the comments that I have posted. In fact Alec openly admits to having done so.

Alec wrote at 9.34 pm yesterday: ‘Apologies to respondees to Greenstein who’re having their comments removed. This is a man who uses threats of litigation when criticized, and deletes dissent from his blog as standard; not to mention tries to nobble online polls to present British Jews as supportive of racist street thugs.

If he wishes to enter into a discussion (something he never enters into here , no matter how insincerely) about any piece on HP, I’d suggest he starts a thread on his blog and open comments. Otherwise, he has joined a small group including Sonic and Skidmarx and all BNP supporters: one whose comments I remove on sight. Even Micha Sass has avoided this fate.’

So, let us be clear. Those of us who have spent our time fighting fascism in this country, unlike any of the Hpers who pontificate about such things are to be banned. And despite the fact that the blog relates to the expulsion that I and others set in train to remove a holocaust denier from PSC, the narrative that HP (Hypocrites’ Place) upholds cannot afford for the truth to be told!

Clearly these hypocrites say one thing and mean another. As for their banner headline: ‘‘Liberty, if it means anything, means the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.’ So they front their site with a lie so Sara, given that the truth is now up for all to see you have one choice if you are to maintain any honesty and integrity and that is resign from the HP collective.

And then we have Lamia’s little posting, which does indeed come out of the same sewer that the BNP fishes in. To the comment that ‘The UK has the problem of the British colonial attitudes to their former colonies. Actually, Fabian, we have the problem of their attitudes to us.

Lamia adds, naturally ‘Including Jews. The Pakistani immigrant population alone have contributed a great deal to the antisemitic ‘culture’ of the country. The jury’s out on whether they have contributed much else. Oh yes, I forgot: white child-prostitution rings. How wonderfully multicultural.’ So now Lamia buys into the filthy racist that the NF used to peddle on the front pages of their papers (including one which is virtually word for word if I recall) that they, Black immigrants, create ‘white child-prostitution rings.’ And wasn’t it similar allegations that were made about lecherous Jews seeking to entrap and corrupt innocent Aryan children.

What a racist sewer HP is.

And as to the spurious justification for banning my comments, that I use the threat of litigation when challenged. Not true. I’ve never threatened anyone with litigation because we disagree. When Atzmon decided that he could take no more criticism from me and instead resorted to digging up 25 year old convictions for major crimes like shoplifting and smoking dope, I sued him for libel under the special provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. In other words he used my past, not that I have anything to be ashamed of, in order to deflect attention from his anti-Semitism.

It is no surprise that Joseph so readily identifies with the tactics of Atzmon because in reality there is no difference of principle between Joseph and Atzmon and his holocaust denial friends - both share much the same racist discourse.

And as Sarah herself knows, I haven’t deleted her posts nor do I delete any which are not abusive or racist. I even printed the e-mail regretting that I and my family hadn’t been sent to Auschwitz from some unnamed Zionist. Can’t imagine why Joseph should be so sympathetic to such people, but then again, racist hypocrites know no bounds.

So Sarah has a choice, bearing in mind that if you lie down with dogs you tend to end up with fleas!

UPDATE: My latest post said that I had been put in a 'moderation queue'. It would seem that that banner headline of HP is becoming even more frayed!!

Tony Greenstein said...

Clearly the latest developments have seriously shaken the racists at Hypocrites Place. Their only response is that not 100% of those present voted for the expulsion but even a child can see that that argument doesn't get u very far.

I intend to do a quick post on the hypocrisy of these people and how they got their come uppance. in particular their commitment to 'free speech', their willingness to carry BNP style racism about Pakistani 'child prostitution rings' and their banning of anti-Zionists.

Do u know if they use IP addresses to do this? I posted under an assumed name and it was moderated so I assume so! E-mail me at tonygreenstein@yahoo.com if u wish

skidmarx said...

I notice this from Sarah a couple of hours ago, in second hand response to a comment that said ‘PSC’s ultimate goal has to be rooted in Jew hate.’ :
I am sure ‘hate’ is right for a few, and I think some of the hard hearted, cold types are quite happy to accommodate the haters or (to be a bit kinder) to be (?)willfully blind to the hate.
This doesn't really require further comment. What is interesting is that the commenter she was immediately responding to goes on to say:
‘zkharya – surely “the liberation of Palestine completely” DOES mean “destroy Israel entirely”.’
It depends. Not immediately. More likely ending a Jewish ror and/or implementing a Palestinian ror.

Such an Alice in Wonderland world where allowing refugees to return while rejecting colonial settlement at the expense of those refugees is abnormal and to be explained as a psychological defect.

Gert said...

"Do u know if they use IP addresses to do this?"

Yes, it's basically the only way and very easy to do with an IP recognition/blocking script. There are tons of them about. I was in a 'moderation queue' at Millett's for some months but he seems to have lifted it now. If 'your comment is being moderated' appears immediately, this flagging was generated automatically.

One of the deleting mods at HP is 'Alec', himself a vicious blowhard.

Recently I've seen the emergence of some American bloggers at HP who (on their own blogs) praise praise Gingrich for his 'invented People' racism. Since the administrative move to Washington DC, HP has become worse, IMHO...

Sarah AB sounds very naive and unaware of the (Evangelical) Christian Zionist movement in the US and their influence on affiliated US pols like McCain, Lieberman and Santorum...

'Joseph W' obsession with Rev Sizer can be explained by the latter's careful analysis of the CZ movement.

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes they are cutting their own throats. Firstly an overtly BNP style racist comment coupled with a hairbrained attempt to paint 35 votes against expulsion as being votes for HD.

Talk about McCarthyism. But I guess if HP has transferred its operation to the USA then McCarthyism and no doubt evangelical christianity is all you'll get.

Either Sarah is being deliberately naive, is naive or is putting on a front. Either way she should decide whether she really wants to stay in a racist cesspool

Sarah AB said...

I know *something* about American Christian Zionism (though I certainly haven't made any study of it) but the name hadn't stuck in my mind. I was actually commenting on one of Joseph's posts recently about the (apocalyptic) antisemitism of some Christian Zionism, and he and others said they felt this was overstated by antizionists.

I checked - and then checked again - but can see no deleted comments (associated with my own post) from Tony. That doesn't mean they weren't posted - it may be some vagary of Wordpress or whatever - but I can't see them.

Gert - even with a wink - it seems objectionable and perverse to imply that the bloggers of HP are Nazis.

Gert said...

For all the hypocritical Zios out there, this passage from an extraordinary Ha’aretz piece [it appears to have been removed now] springs to mind:

He [Dr. Zvi Sela, a former senior police officer and a psychological consultant at present, my edit] held two-hour weekly meetings over a three-year period with Sheikh Ahmed Yassin when the Hamas founder was incarcerated in Israel.

"It was riveting," he says, adding, "There was no terrorist attack or abduction in those years that was not planned, managed and commanded from within the prisons. That is where the senior figures were, including Sheikh Yassin. He was paralyzed in the legs and arms, and was capable only of moving his head, but he was a very powerful figure. He exercised tremendous control over what went on in the prison and outside, too."

Adding that this was a turbulent period of terror attacks, Sela explains that his goal in the encounters was "to collect information about the Palestinian cells and organizations, to thwart the attacks outside. In that capacity I met with Yassin. We held him in Hadarim Prison [near Netanya] on the third floor in harsh conditions. We gave him a very hard time. He was not allowed visits and we kept him tightly locked up for almost five years. He was held in a narrow room where the temperature was 45 degrees [Celsius] in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. His blankets were dirty and smelled. That's how he lived. I found him to be a very smart man, and also very decent. We engaged in a war of minds. We knew that after every battle between us someone would die, either on my side or on his side."

What did you talk about?

Sela: "Business - intelligence. When the biggest adversaries sit down to talk face to face, it's a different ball game. I always told him, 'Stop blowing up buses, stop murdering women and children.' He replied: 'Tzvika, listen, we had good teachers: You established a state thanks to your military power. The dead I take from you are for the sake of establishing a state, but you are killing women and children for the sake of the occupation. You already have a state. You are dirty and hypocritical. I have no interest in destroying you - all I want is a state." [my emph.]

Tony Greenstein said...

Sarah,

there's no vagaries of the internet. Fact is that 2 comments to your post and another couple to Joseph's were deleted and now there is an official 'moderation' sign which comes up.

It is clear that the defenders of telling it regardless of whether someone wants to hear and all the other Orwell nonsense, nonsense since Orwell would have run a mile from HP, he was a socialist and fought with POUM in the Spanish Civil War, is just hypocritical cant.

Hagee is the most important person in the Christian Zionist movement. He is also deeply anti-Semitic. If I had said that Hitler was god's messenger just imagine the crap HP would have come out with. THere would have been posts galore.

And if not him then Glenn Beck, the Fox News presenter sacked by them because of his overtly anti-Semitic nonsense in the end - Jewish financiers and bankers, financing WWI (another Atzmon theme incidentally) is invited as special guest to address the Knesset and of course Zionist organisations defend him too.

You really do need to read up around the subject and if you really want to know what the Zionists did as millions of Jews were burned then the best place to start if Ben Hecht's Perfidy. Although a Revionist Zionist, he and a few others were sincere and wanting to save Jews from the depths of the Holocaust.

And who were their main protagonists? Stephen Wise, Abba Hillel Silver and all the other machers in the Zionist movement for whom rescue to anywhere but Palestine was forbidden - trefa.

Gert said...

Tony, Skidmarx, Mark:

Hey, why don’t we have a ‘Brown Sauce Watch week’? Trawl through their comment sections and dreg up the worst of the racist comments, then eliminate any doubles and collate the uniques into a ‘Brown Sauce Racist Hit Parade’ blogpost or something. I’m up for it, I’m sure Skidders and Mark (Elf) would be too… Could be fun, not to mention easy to do! Fish in a barrel...

Sarah AB said...

Tony - I'm not saying you weren't deleted, or haven't been put in premoderation - I'm only saying that I am not seeing what I would normally expect to see when someone's comments have been deleted.

Tony Greenstein said...

Sarah

I'm not saying that you are denying I've been moderated! But if you're not seeing it then the question arises as to why you are not seeing it, as I've got screen captures etc.

And what does this say about that slogan about telling people what they don't want to hear. Does that not apply to Harry's Place then?

Of course if the accusation that aZ=aS is now taken for granted and not to be challenged on HP then it makes sense. And it is certainly in the interests of the Zionist posters to make that equation so as to portray opposition to Atzmon as being no different from their target.

Even Alan Dershowitz, an ardent Zionist and law professor at Harvard, can cite what I write as proof that Atzmon is beyond the pale but to HP such comments are anathema because they don't fit in with the preordained conclusions that HP operates under.

Are you happy with this? Is there nowhere you draw the line?

Anonymous said...

So Tony
The 20% who voted against are libertarians who won't dance to the Zionist tune .
Then again most sane people would simply identify them as supporters of an antisemitic Holocaust denier who refuse to pull the plug on him . Instead of excusing it why don't you get a grip on reality man .

Tony Greenstein said...

So Anon

The evidence is quite clear, ironically on Harry's Place, which I assume you frequent, that the Stalinist CPGB-ML opposed the expulsion but also don't deny the holocaust. TOGETHER WITH those who believe in freedom of speech above all, that constituted the opposition to the expulsion.

Talk about getting to grips with reality, you could at least get the maths right, i.e. 16.99%!

No - it's not 'most sane people' that would say that those who vote against someone who was expelled being in favour of that which the person in question believed. Because you are against something that doesn't mean you support something else. Just logic.

But like most Zionists you beleive that anti-Zionism is 'anti-Semitism' and hence it doesn't matter who voted what way really, does it?

And other people will say that the holocaust is gone, what is here and now is a Zionist state, using the holocaust, to legitimise the torture and murder of children. It's not hard to understand that logic, even if it doesn't take account of political realities and even historical fact.

stephen marks said...

in any case, as I understand it the PSC conference is not confined to delegates and any member can attend. And as Tony has pointed out, the Brar sect brought along practically its entire membership, which accounts for 20 of the 35. So there is no evidence that 20% of the votes, or 16%, represents the same percentage of the membership - on the contrary, it i more likely that they represented nobody but themselves.

Dwain said...

You moderate and delete everything that you don't like.
So what's you winning for.
As you are going to delete this comment too.
I will make aware in HP your are not just a hypocrite, but you expect other places to act different then your blog............

Tony Greenstein said...

Dwain,

I'm trembling in my boots!

Yes I delete things I don't like, such as death threats, anti-semitic and racist abuse (it's difficult to tell the difference between the Zionist and fascist variety) because I don't believe in free speech for overt racists.

But HP proudly proclaims its libertarian principles and is therefore condemned out of its own mouth. Hypocrisy being the tribute that vice pays to virtue!

But when you devote much of your blogs to attacking someone's opinions it is normal to allow them to reply. I've always done that with Atzmon's supporters and Atzmon, as long as they are not abusive. And likewise Zionists like yourself are able to comment as long as you are not overtly racist (i.e. racially abusive).

And I assume that in your more illiterate moments you meant 'whining' not 'winning' (they have entirely different meanings!).

freethepeeps@riseup.net said...

Dwain said: "I will make aware in HP your are not just a hypocrite, but you expect other places to act different then your blog............"

Why not remind them that he has a history of demanding that other sites DELETE posts he doesn't like?
https://lists.indymedia.org.uk/pipermail/moderation/2012-January/000367.html

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah Free the Peeps, Atzmon supporter and defender of Hypocrite's Place. Quite apt when u think about it. But I'm always happy to post peep's nonsense

Levi9909 said...

FTP - didn't Tony already mention that he wasn't averse to deleting racist posts? Pay attention fella.

Gert said...

Peeps:

I've no problem imagining what kind (and possibly by whom?) posts you're talking about.

'Freedom of speech' is also the veil behind which those who want to say things that are beyond the pale hide. And stuff that's beyond the pale belongs just there: in the wilderness...

Gert said...

From freethepeeps:

• freethepeeps | December 1, 2007 at 6:30 am
One more attack like that golemonwheels, and you can take your wheels elsewhere.


Mary Rizzo catches a bit of flak and it's peeps to the rescue! Pot and kettle, perhaps, peepsie?

Andy said...

"Yes I delete things I don't like, such, anti-semitic and racist abuse"

You answered it yourself.
As you are considered an anti-semite and a racist, HP have the same reason why they delete your comments.
So what is your problem here.
Or as usual you are claiming double standards here.

Tony Greenstein said...

Andy

I know u and the rest of HP aren't too bright, but try getting this.

Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews, discrimination against them etc. It ISN'T opposition to Zionism, because if that were the case then most Jews before 1945 would have been anti-Semitic.

Neo-con Hypocrites Place is a vile racist sewer which, as the article shows, engages in the same type of virulent racist crap as the BNP and EDL - your good friends remember.

And who called Jews 'vermin'? Racist Zionists and Hitlerites of every description. Jews were no more than a bacillus to people like you and the real anti-Semites.

Or shall I remind you of what Pinhas Felix Rosenbluth (later a Minister of Justice of the State of Israel), who described Palestine

"an institute for the fumigation of Jewish vermin."

Felix Rosenblüth, "Feldbrief aus dem Osten," Der jüdische Student (1914), p. 74. as cited in Studies in Zionism Vol. 8, Autumn 1983.

That's pretty clear isn't it. Herzl made similar remarks as did Nordau, Hess, Klatzkin etc. That was why Nazi theoreticians like Rosenberg liked to quote you Zionists.

And even someone with your few brain cells could work out that just because you accuse someone of anti-Semitism doesn't mean they are so and as Norman Finkelstein has show, Zionists have done nothing but use and abuse the term, thus letting the real anti-Semites off the hook.

So the BNP/EDL style racists on HP are hardly in a position to discern what anti-Semitism is. What they really support is Israel. Simple isn't it? Even for a pea brain like you!

David Hillman said...

Stephen is right. Taking account of packing by some sects, the votes probably represent much more than 90% of the actual membership. My vote for example represented over 100 members - we were unanimous in branch discussion and made no attempt to pack the meeting (other things to do here).
Still its policy that really matters and I cant wait to go on to the offensive now against the real racists and their fascist allies. See this article: link: http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/palestine-home-demolition-ethnic-cleansing/

David Hillman

Levi9909 said...

Gert - in fairness to FTP, he doesn't argue for free speech. He is happy to promote Atzmon, in one instance justifying the holocaust, in others denying it and he was equally happy to allow a comment calling Galloway a "paki-lover". But when it comes to criticising Atzmon he's not so keen. And on his own blog you had to register to comment there.

He seems to think that zionism vs anti-zionism should be free for all racists and no one else. It's interesting that before Mary Rizzo fell out with Atzmon, certain HPrs were colluding with them to smear Tony and now there are HPrs smearing Tony, FTP comes here to aid HP. I hope people notice that when anti-racists campaign against zionism they don't go side with other racists and when anti-racists oppose antisemitism they don't side with zionists.

Andy - Tony already copied and pasted HP's excuse for barring his comments and it had nothing to do with antisemitism. They ban anti-racists who make them look silly.

Tony - It's not just dead German nazis who are fond of quoting zionists to "prove" their point about Jews. Atzmon too is very fond of quoting zionist founders and leaders, when he's not plagiarising white supremacists and neo-nazis. I know you knew that, I just thought it was worth mentioning here.

freethepeeps said...

TG: "Ah Free the Peeps, Atzmon supporter and defender of Hypocrite's Place. Quite apt when u think about it."

Where did I defend HP Tony? I merely pointed out that you're inconsistent on these matters. I dislike HP intensely as it goes.

Levi9909: "didn't Tony already mention that he wasn't averse to deleting racist posts?"

Was that post racist? Its the same post that he posted to his own blog, along with a picture of the hidden version. So if it was racist, and he deletes racist posts why would he post it up?

Mind you, I seem to recall you doing the same thing some years ago.
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2007/11/something-rotten-at-indymedia-uk.html

And that one was palpably racist.

It can be googled via your site, but not Indymedia. On the other hand, unlike at HP or this blog, if someone complains about a hidden post it can be checked, not just by admins but by site readers as well. That it is hidden indicates that it is considered to breach Indymedia guidleines.

A whole thread of comments disappeared under this HP thread
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/01/a-small-thank-you-to-anti-israel-jews/

and the many points made are now, it would seem lost forever.

On the other hand it is still possible for Tony to go and find the posts I hid which he is still complaining about and check whether they meet the guidleines or not. And if he can write emails without insulting people he can query the decisions on the moderation list.

Dwain said...

I knew you will delete my comment.
What didn't you like exactly, the truth.....

Tony Greenstein said...

Dwain I deleted your previous comments because it said nothing and every badly at that!

In particular 'everything that you don't like, is abuse of any kind for you. You cannot accept anything that "you don't like" ,' There are plenty of comments I accept from people like ftp, and Atzmon supporters and Zionists.

So I guess I deleted another untruthful Zionist's claims.

I also deleted Andy who supports HP in accusing me of being an 'anti-Semite' because I defend killing some Jews. Which Jews he doesn't say and whether it is because they are Jewish or settlers or whatever. Or maybe it's anti-Semitic to kill settlers in the West Bank now? The very fact of them being Jewish makes their killing racist? No matter that these are primeval racists who systematically attack Palestinians because they want their land and justify this on the basis that they are sub-human?

And since, apparently, HP can define who they like as anti-Semitic and use that as an excuse for censorship, I've yet to hear how that is compatible with their comments policy or is the latter just for show?

No bans for racists who smear the whole Pakistani community as organising 'white' child prostitution rings. Just those who are 'anti-Semitic' by the HP definition.

Pass the sick bag Alice!

Tony Greenstein said...

In fact HP have given no reason for my banning. Instead they pretend everything is normal. Sarah, being a mixture of the disingenuous and wilfully blind, is not even told, if we can believe her, that posts were being deleted from her own article!

Wasn't aware of this latest bout of collaboration between HPers and Atzmon Mark but I can believe it. After all Toube and Mad Mikey went dringing with him and Ezra offered to act as his 'researcher'.

Atzmon of course bases his anti-Semitism on an acceptance of Zionist claims. So surprise there!

Tony Greenstein said...

All of this should be seen in the context of what Omar Barghouti, in his explicit condemnation of anti-Semitism and those who have been fooled by the Zionists into thinking that anti-Semitism helps their cause.

There was a major article on the abuse and torture of Palestinian children. Of course 'free speech' HP has nothing to say on this and if you do say something about it, as my post to them did, then it is banned on the grounds, according to Andy, of 'anti-Semitism'.

So if you criticise the beating up kids, applying electric shocks to them and keeping them in solitary confinement is 'anti-Semitism'. Is it any wonder that some people now accept this label when Zionist propagandists (& HP are very bad at this anyway) equate repression and torture with being Jewish?

No wonder HP and Atzmon get on like a house on fire (unfortunately not literally!)

Levi9909 said...

I wasn't referring to any new instances of pro-active collusion by HP. I was just using FTP's self-exposé here to make a general point.

andy said...

I don't support HP I support logic.
When you say that Israel is a Settlers state and you claim that all settlers deserve to be killed.
Where is your low common logic.
That means that for you, all the Jews in Israel deserve to be killed.
And that's for you NOT to be an Antisemite.
So what is it.............
You allow yourself to delete my comment, but to use what ever you think you can comment, but then you write
"In fact HP have given no reason for my banning"......
They don't have to as you mention they claim that you are a racist and an Antisemite/
And as you claim that you don't like "Racist" comments that you find you don't like them, same is in the case of HP.
You just don't get it do you.

Dwain said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tony Greenstein said...

Andy writes that he doesn't support HP but logic. But he is writing in support of HP's decision, which is illogical. So he is a lying Zionist too.

I have never said that all settlers deserve to be killed. I said Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank, who are regularly attacked and killed, have the right to defend themselves and kill their attackers.

Israel is a settler colonial state but clearly most Israeli Jews today are not settlers having been there for some considerable time. THe problem is that most Israeli Jews can't see the process of settlement.

The state itself if a settler state as the evictions and demolition of Bedouin Homes, of no concern to 'logical Andy' demonstrates. Again the Bedouin have the right to kill those who are evicting them by force. Does Andy disagree?

So even by his tortuous 'logic' I don't support and never have the killing of 'all Jews' in Israel. Not only is it a lie but a figleaf for the BNP style racism of HP. I see that 'logical' Andy hasn't commented on the 'fact' of Lamia that most Pakistanis only contribution to this society is prostitution rings for white girls.

Try substituting 'Jews' and see if that is racist.

And in fact HP have made no claims. Certain bloggers have but hey, all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites so that is the 'logic'.

What really pissed off HP is that their claim that 20% of PSC supports holocaust denial was seen to be another lie and they prefer anti-Semites like Atzmon to anti-Zionists such as ourselves.

Nothing changes!

Tony Greenstein said...

I've also deleted 3 comments I let through by mistake from abusive HPers who think that they can support banning anti-racists such as myself from HP and then come post here!

It's called a chutzpah.

Gert said...

As you basically wrote above, Tony, why would HPers (and so many co-Zionists - in fact nearly all of them) need further proof or evidence of our antisemitism, when they point blank equate anti-Zionism (or even just criticism of Israel tout court) with antisemitism? Perhaps they have some doubts regarding their equation?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
George said...

"in fact nearly all of them) need further proof or evidence of our antisemitism"
Gert, you are definitely wrong.
You and Greenstein are Antisemites, NO one needs any more proof.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
tony greenstein and Omar Baghouti look like 2 lesbian women.

As this is one of the more intelligent Zionist comments, at least compared to George above, I thought I should allow it

Tony Greenstein

Tony Greenstein said...

George,

I know you are pretty stupid, but no one is racist, still less anti-Semitic (which is in any event a marginal prejudice) because you say so. The fact is that you provide no proof, and yet Hypocrite's Place is full of BNP style anti-Muslim and anti-Black comments.

The real racists are those who think that being Jewish gives them the right to dispossess the native peoples of Palestine.

We oppose anti-Semitism, not because it is dangerous today, but because it discredits the Palestinian cause and causes people to focus on inherent traits in individuals rather than looking at the causes of the existence of the Israel state and its works.

As someone who has a little more experience of tackling fascist inspired racism, including anti-Semitism, then I treat with contempt those like George, who use the past racism Jews have experienced to justify the present oppression of the Palestinians.

What makes it worse was that during the holocaust the Zionists denied anything was happening at first, then sat on the Riegner cable from Switzerland providing definite proof from August 15 to November 23 1942 and campaigned throughout to oppose emigration of the refugees to anywhere but Palestine.

Zionism and anti-Semitism are literally two twins. And people like George denounced 'anti-Semitism' whilst linking up with the EDL and BNP.

Gert said...

"tony greenstein and Omar Baghouti look like 2 lesbian women."

It’s often struck me that many racists seem to want the full set [of available racisms]. Not surprisingly perhaps: if you can’t recognise one form then you’re perhaps not well placed to recognise another either. And if you don't mind one, why object to another?

Lester said...

"We oppose anti-Semitism, not because it is dangerous today, but because it discredits the Palestinian cause "

Meaning you Greenstein do NOT fighting Antisemitism,you fight the "issue" as a political tool.
You are the lowest, using it..... while on the other hand you claim that Israeli Jews deserve to die.
You need any proof, you just claim all the time that you are an Antisemite.

Tony Greenstein said...

I edited the more virulent abuse out of Lester's comments.

But it is correct that I don't oppose anti-Semitism because it is a danger to Jews today. Clearly it isn't. it's a marginal prejudice and even the fascists are pro-Israel and therefore play down their anti-Semitism.

So where does 'anti-Semitism' come from? Primarily from those angered by Israel's murderous attacks on an unarmed civilian population who erroneously believe the Zionists that it is all the Jews wot did it.

Even Lester should understand that.

My primary reason for opposing it in the Palestine solidarity movement is that it discredits support for the Palestinians and opposition to Zionism AND because racist politics and analysis sullies the PS movement and also sidetrack it from an understanding of those who are to blame for Israel's monstrosities to 'the Jews'.

Simple. Even Lester should get that. But among the world's evils anti-Semitism today is the least of our problems.

Perhaps if Lester and his HP friends were to adopt anti-racism as a principle, rather than an exception just for Jews, then they would not carry BNP style racist abuse on the Hypocrite's Place.

But prats like Lester only see racism when Jews are the victim.

Tony Greenstein said...

Lester posted another comment. Because he is unable to comment without being abusive, I’ve simply answered his salient points within my reply:

Lester said...

"Jews wot did it" learn to spell your English......

TG: You are the last one to give instructions on the use of English. At least I deliberately misspell something. Try looking at your previous post 'Meaning you Greenstein do NOT fighting Antisemitism'. See what is wrong grammatically? I suggest you look at the mote in your own eye before the beam in others.

TG You ask where anti-Semitism comes from. A good question. The first thing is it isn't one continuum as you suggest and is part of the Zionist fable. Medieval anti-Semitism was a reaction to the Jews' role as money lenders, tax collectors etc. They weren't unique and nor was the reaction unique Other people who performed a similar role in other countries - Scots, Chinese etc. met similar responses.

The point is that with the development of capitalism and the nation state, anti-Semitism began to become more dangeous. It was based on race not religion. Once a Jew always a Jew whereas historically, medieval/christian anti-Semitism including Luther had always sought the conversion of the jews.

And one should add that in eg. Poland it was the nobles and higher orders of the Church who protected the jews, and kings like Casimir the Great.

Where does racism come from? The need for capitalism and its predecessors to have a visible target and scapegoat, through the economic functioning of an economy, through originally the resentment of the peasants for whom the Jews were the immediate oppressor.

More generally the international division of labour, which ran on national lines. Hence slavery was based on the trade with Africa. British citizens were never ensalved and Lord Mansfield's famous judgment circa 1750 emphasises this when in effect outlawing slavery within the British isles.

Hence the British poor were indentured, never enslaved, but I digress.

Yes anti-Semitism does discredit support for the Palestinians. It is understandable that people who support the Palestinians are tempted to blame their treatment on 'the Jews' after all Zionism says it represents Jews. But we shouldn't take the word of racist Zionists as to whom they represent. An intelligent solidarity movement will reject the claims of the oppressor, not least their claims on behalf of Jews who reject Zionism.

Today anti-Semitism is marginal. it is not a form of state racism, Jews aren't deported or jailed because they are jewish. The main instigator of anti-Semitism is Zionism, which claims that its barbarities are on behalf of all Jews. And a few of their court jesters, like Lester, are always happy to echo this.

Lester said...

Well...... that is what I wanted.
You cannot answer questions, so you edit and take out what you want.
I have a record of my original.....
no you did not answer anything, as you are week and not able to answer questions.
what a low debate.
no wonder you lose.

Jason said...

"And one should add that in eg. Poland it was the nobles and higher orders of the Church who protected the jews, and kings like Casimir the Great."

Wow great..... It is great to know from your knowledge, that there is no connection between Christianity (you know Jesus) and hate for the Jews.
Amazing to know that Antisemitism has only a background because of what you say "reaction to the Jews' role as money lenders, tax collectors etc." As Jews chose to do those things......
Do you realy think that people are so ignorant.

BTW you always critisize and offend when you find a spelling mistake.
So why are you so offended.

Tony Greenstein said...

Jason,

You say that 'It is great to know... that there is no connection between Christianity (you know Jesus) and hate for the Jews.'

I didn't say there is no connection. Clearly Christianity was used to legitimise anti-Semitism at certain periods and to drive it forward, in particular the lower orders of the church, but to say it was the cause of anti-Semitism is absurd.

Having studied the holocaust pretty carefully, it appears to me that in most countries the church took on the colour of its surroundings. In Denmark it couldn't be faulted. In The Netherlands the opposition of the Catholic Church to any deportations in fact led to Nazi reprisals against Jewish Christians.

In the Baltic countries the church was far worse and in Latvia actually forbade any intercession on behalf of the Jews. The record in Croatia and Slovakia of the Catholic church hardly bears scrutinising, though the Apostolic delegate in Slovakia undoubtedly did a great deal and was decisive in stopping the first deportations, when about 2/3 of the community were deported. In Bulgaria the Church came out decisively against deportations. In Italy it was instrumental in hiding Jews. I could go on. In Germany it was pretty bad - the Protestant church being both the worst and the best.

Religion is not fixed, it changes like society. In societies where there is no secular anti-Semitism it was often at the forefront of opposing the deportations.

Would that the Jewish religion play any part in opposing racism in Israel. There is certainly is in the driving seat of the most disgusting racism along the lines of Rav Dov Lior's 'A Jewish fingernail is worth a thousand Palestinian lives.'

This gutter Judeo-Nazi racism is never commented upon by Zionist clones such as Jason. Jews can do no wrong. Judaism can do no wrong. We are the chosen ones so we make the rules. We certainly owe no solidarity to others.

If the Christian Churches had had the same morality as the Jewish rabbinate and religion vs Israel, then the Jewish victims of the holocaust could well have reached 7-8 million.

Jewish participation in certain trades wasn't compulsory and sprang out of their role as a trading people. Jason won't understand this as he appears to be the normal thick Zionist, but others might understand that there isn't something special about Jews.

Jason asks why I 'always critisize and offend when you find a spelling mistake.' I think he means 'take offence'. Answer is I don't but Lester pulled me up about my spelling and I just pointed out that he was no Shakespeare!
So why are you so offended.

Tony Greenstein said...

Lester says that I edit 'and take out what you want.' No I removed your abusive assertion that I am anti-Semitic. Those of us who have fought the fascists most of their lives whilst the HP types that Lester supports have opposed all action against indigenous fascists whilst traducing supporters of the Palestinians shouldn't complain.

And since the vile HP, home of BNP supporters, has banned me and therefore I cannot respond to their normal defamatory accusations, Lester can hardly complain that I edited his posts!

For someone who picks me up on my spelling, to say 'you are week and not able to answer questions.' is a bit much. I am neither 7 or 14 days!!

what debate is it that I've lost with you? I didn't know HPers could debate.

They are just Police informants and low-life without a single moral other than harnessing the 6 million to justify a few more killings.

Lester said...

Tony Greenstein

HP has banned you, because they purport not to tolerate Antisemites but are happy to publish BNP style racism.

It is true that Lamia posted that:

'The Pakistani immigrant population alone have contributed a great deal to the anti-Semitic ‘culture’ of the country. The jury’s out on whether they’ve contribute much else. Oh yes, I forgot: white-child prostitution rings. How wonderfully multicultural.’

But just because we are racists when it comes to Black people doesn't mean we don't oppose 'anti-Semitism'.

Don't you get that. you are going to be banned from every public media same as Atzmon and all other Antisemites.

Tony Greenstein said...

I'm grateful to Lester for his latest comment, even if it had to be slightly edited to remove the abuse.

HP are opposed to anti-Semitism, except when they take Atzmon out for drinks and praise him for not being a racist! I quote from a joint article by Mad Mikey Ezra and David Toube:

'Last week, Mikey invited me for a drink with Gilad Atzmon.
Mikey's thoughts on Gilad and his worldview follow, below.
Gilad was, I have to say, utterly charming and a delightful drinking companion. ... Is Gilad Atzmon a racist? Not in the narrow sense of being preoccupied by genetic differences between people, certainly. He is rather, I think, a 'cultural essentialist':

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2007/03/19/gilad_atzmon_and_jewishness.php
March 19, 2007

Note that the link doesn't work anymore. Presumably HP has done a springclean of the more embarrassing posts but I have a screenshot!

So yes, HP not only praise BNP style racism but Atzmon too is not above a bit of praise.

Because, as Zionist and Israel novelist A B Yehoshua said in a speech to the Union of Jewish Students: (Jewish Chronicle 22.1.82):

'Even today, in a perverse way., a real anti Semite must be a Zionist.'

And that is why the Hypocrite's Place is not only racist, but also anti-Semitic, as it assumes that all Jews hold one opinion - support for Zionism. Birds of a feather....




http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2007/03/19/gilad_atzmon_and_jewishness.php

Lester said...

You are just doing what is expected as a fool.
Editing comments (I got my originals).
Your weak spots are exposed.
You can write what you want in my name or any other name .
Fact is, you are banned and will be banned because you are an Antisemite.

Tony Greenstein said...

Lester still doesn't get it. They say that there's no fool like an old fool but in Lester's case I'll make an exception.

Fact is that if was anti-Semitic or a racist then far from being banned I would be welcomed with open arms by HP. And, although you can't believe what liars like Lester say, HP does have a policy on open comments where it says nothing about bans on racism but believes in free speech.

But since HP is an openly racist site now, containing BNP/EDL style attacks on Muslims and in the case I quote Pakistanis (imagine if the word 'Jew' had been substituted) it is inconceivable that anyone could be banned for anti-Semitism.

But if Lester insists otherwise maybe he can point to one single example of my having made an anti-Semitic comment on HP? I pointed to its BNP style commentary, to which Alec stated I was banned, as he was obviously annoyed.

I also described how Pinhas Rosenbluth, according to Joachim Doron in what became the Journal of Israeli History, later to become Israel's Justice Minister, described Palestine as an "institute for the fumigation of Jewish vermin." Clearly an anti-Semitic remark, but one of many from Zionists.

Perhaps the idiot Lester could tell us whether describing Jews as vermin is anti-Semitic? If not then Rosenberg and other Nazi ideologues were also not anti-Semitic and indeed Hitler himself, when describing Jews as a bacillus, was not being anti-Semitic. I'm puzzled, it would seem that Lester approves of this remark because I've been banned for pointing such simple truths out.

The reality is that PSC expelled a holocaust denier and specifically stated that holocaust denial and anti-Semitism were incompatible with membership of PSC. This has annoyed Lester and his gang of racists at Hypocrites Place, because their sole purpose for existing is to 'prove' that support for the Palestinians and anti-Zionism is, per se, anti-Semitic and it is on those flimsy grounds, that I have been banned.

THis is incidentally despite the fact that even semi-honest posters like Anthony Cooper, have had to admit that it is people like me who took Atzmon seriously at a time when Lester and his mates were having drinkies with Atzmon.

So yes Lester I understand what your 'anti-Semitism' ban is about and so too do others. I also understand your disappointment at us having banned the Atzmonites from PSC. Perhaps you would stop working with the EDL now and more to the point, start erasing BNP style racism from HP? Fat chance I'd imagine!!

Gert said...

Tony,

I don’t see the point in further allowing numpties like ‘Lester’ on here. He’s had his idiotic two cents, that should suffice. Over at mine that stuff goes straight in the circular filing system after two outbursts. They can call it what they like.

Tony Greenstein said...

Gert

I know you're right but I'm too much of a liberal Marxist!!

No sometimes fools like Lester condemn themselves out of their own mouth. The guy is such an idiot he doesn't realise that accusing someone of 'anti-Semitism' whilst defending the most vile BNP stuff on Hypocrite's Place might be incongruous.

But it would seem that a lack of grey cells seems almost a genetic quality among Zionists these days. Once upon a time they had people like Abba Eban, who were cultured and educated, or even the younger Einstein. But now you get muppets like Lester who are, as they say, one sandwich short of a picnic.

So I agree with you but on the other hand....

Lester said...

I gave you all the arguments that you are an Antisemite, but you deleted it...........
"a lack of grey cells seems almost a genetic quality among Zionists "
Ha Ha and u say you are not a racist.
How stupid can you be.

Gert said...

Dixit Lester:

”But just because we are racists when it comes to Black people doesn't mean we don't oppose 'anti-Semitism'.”

Yeah, you’re quite the principled guy!

Lester reminds me of one of the most vicious racists I’ve ever come across: an antisemite (and Holocaust minimiser), anti-Black, anti-Muslim, anti-gay, ‘Britain is White’ type of neonazi who when called on his racism started trawling Zionist sites for abuse hurled at me, as ‘proof’ of my antisemitism!

Did you know that Homo Sapiens sprang up in different places at once on Earth, thereby explaining the different ‘Races’? And that the people who believe this think they’re part of the Master Race? Slightly self-defeatingly perhaps?

The last Zionist standing will have a room temperature IQ and I don't mean in Fharenheit

Anonymous said...

poor tonyle, the kid that screamed wolf wolf, became the wolf.....
even your Zio friend in HP kicked you out as a racist Antisemite.
Now the PSC will kick you out too, as the word is spread.
Tonyle is an Antisemite.....and a racist.... and an AntiZionist Zio....
poor Tonyle looks like you need a new organization I would recomend it will start with a Z.

Tony Greenstein said...

Gert

you should take up predicting the future. Right on cue Atzmon, for it is he, writes quoting HP (& therefore Lester) as to why I'm an anti-Semite. He has literally trawled a pro-Zionist site!

So according to Atzmon, the arch anti-Semite, who of course is my political enemy, I'm an anti-Semite because HP says so. Next thing he'll be quoting the BNP directly. In fact, come to think of it, he did until he was caught deleting and redeleting material!

As for Lester, you have given no one any arguments. All you do is follow in the old Zionist and now Atzmonite tradition of saying all Jews are Zionists and if you oppose Zionism you are anti-Jewish.

Your quite right. Although I said 'seems to' (Lester's not one of nature's brightest sparks being a sandwich short of a picnic) I agree. Your stupidity is nothing to do with your genes. It's just that Zionism seems to attract the most stupid, for whom only simple slogans can suffice.

Red Scribblings said...

As I have noted previously, both sides of the acrimonious dispute between the left-wing Jewish trends personified by Gilad Atzmon and Tony Greenstein. Despite the fact that they spend much of their time virulently slandering each other, they actually agree on a great deal.

They are both the same.

Red Scribblings

Tony Greenstein said...

Thank u 'red (or is it blue) scribblings.' Of course opposites are equal. Atzmon and myself are the same, as the pro-Zionist pro-War Hypocrites Place blog has taken to saying.

Mind in their case it was the only they could say after their disappointment at seeing a holocaust denier expelled from PSC and the adoption of 2 uncompromising motions condemning holocaust denial, racism, Islamaphobia and anti-Semitism.

It was an old favourite of the Right that the extremes meet and anti-fascists and fascists 'were as bad as each other.'

Clearly too much scribbling and not enough thinking!

Anonymous said...

One wonders where Tony Greenstein first learned of Jesse Lieberfeld’s essay and the acclaim it won.Did he by any chance discover it on the website of the supposed ‘Jew-hater’, Gilad Atzmon?

Surely if it was published by Atzmon, it must be, in its essential thrust, something useful to him to further the cause of ‘anti-semitism’. Mustn’t it? Surely an anti-semite and a Jew-hater would not publish a powerful anti-racist piece that showed that Jews were capable of breaking from Zionism and racism, and writing in a way liable to convince others to do the same! How could such an item possibly be publishes by an ‘essentialist’ who supposedly believes that Jews are the embodiment of evil?

On the other hand, one could just as well say, why would such an ‘anti-Zionist Zionist’ (sic!) as Tony Greenstein be inspired to publish something the ‘anti-semite’ Atzmon liked so much as an indictment of ‘Jewishness’ that he gave it the full headline treatment? That hardly makes much sense either!

mmmmmm told you, your stupidity is exposed..........

Tony Greenstein said...

Unfortunately Anonymous in your frenzy to 'expose' my stupidity,you reveal your own.

You base the whole of your argument that I obtained the article from Atzmon's site. Wrong. If you click on the article it reveals I got it direct from the institution
http://www.hss.cmu.edu/pressreleases/pressreleases/jesselieberfeld.html
and the graphic from the article 'Jewish Rebels Rally Against Zionism' http://www.indypendent.org/2009/02/06/jewish-rebels

This is proof that even Atzmon occasionally puts up a good, anti-racist article. Perhaps there's hope yet? I suspect that even the Hypocrites Place puts up the odd non-racist article amongst all the BNP style comments.

But anonymous - I welcome coverts on the road to Damascus. It shows there's hope yet!